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you are so you and I know each other. Weeks if he but not everybody who's watching listening. Yeah knows us let's just start. Yeah with like some introductions, that'd be great. Yeah. Well first yeah you go first. Okay. All right.

So my name is covatis Marshall. Everybody calls me cute. Yeah, and I have the privilege of pastoring a church and Waterloo called City Church. I'm a native. I want a racer you're not have that. We are a lot in common. You have been here my whole life. We lived a little bit away for a little bit in Kansas City and then came back home. Yeah about seven years ago and the church. Yeah. Yeah. And so your people are watching and listening to us right now. They are as our mind. So Jesse Tink, yeah executive Pastor. Pray Lakes church. I've been for a long time.

Um, and we're in a series called here's the mic. Yeah, and so I was like and and the whole series for us. Anyways is how do we help? Just our people listen a little bit more. Yeah understand a little bit more from from voices outside of the church. And that's the whole purpose of ours, right? So there have been some very difficult things. Yeah.

That you and I both have felt as pastors like we got to talk about this. Yeah, but they've been really hard to talk about absolutely and I'm excited to talk to you about this. Not not just because of that but because our contexts in some ways are similar and then some ways they're very different. Yeah. Sure.

So there's pretty obvious things on the surface level that we all know. Yeah doesn't matter the season whether it's a pandemic or an election or a you're in a this part of the city or that part of this. Yeah, whatever right? So just some things that are hard to talk about. What's he when you think about what's on your listing? What's what's the thing when you just you yeah.

Yeah, I think one of the things is how do you Pastor people toward life change realizing that there are a lot of things shaping their identity and the way that they see themselves in the world whether that's their political affiliation whether that's their their sexuality or identity whether it's some cultural issue that they believe is really important and not to minimize those things. But but we are called to help people have Christ formed in them. I think you know the when I think about just the people just within our church and the church at law as as pastors were called to come alongside in in help people see why yeah. Why is it better God's way? Yeah, like why is it better to interact in relationships Stewart your finances raise your children make Decisions. Why is that better? Yeah, and I've got about a 30 minute slot on a Sunday morning to combat. Yep.

You know eight hours a day on social media the newsfeed all these things. Why is that important? Why is that important? Right because whoever has your ear is shaping your outlook. Yeah, and I don't think people know that right right. I mean, that's something that kind of happens in the background. Yeah, that maybe people would even they wouldn't even say they're intentionally doing right but they're mostly blind to it coming out of this last three years as a pastor. I've become more aware than ever that these things are informing people. Yeah, like like some people stop attending Because we didn't wear masks. That's right fast enough or because we warm too long. I think your spot on there.

And I think you know you and I are both in our early 40s. Yeah. And for my part, I mean like I grew up in the church and you were you were saved at a early age. You've been in the church. Yeah, you know atmosphere for very long time. We actually came to Jesus Through similar Traditions even Mmm Yeah, right kind of a really conservative very Mentalist Baptist. Oh for sure Faith. So as we kind of journey into as pastors and followers and brothers.

You know what for me? I became aware that I'm inheriting. A mantle of pastoral Ministry from a previous generation that did this differently than how you and I are absolutely yeah where I mean, I think the dominant approach to some of these harder topics was either you you don't, you know talk about them, but they don't belong in church and it's only gonna make trouble and let's let's just talk about let's let's just talk about Jesus.

Right? Right. Yeah and other things that people like yeah and you and I talked about this too. I mean like when that's your approach what usually happens is you find a group of people that You all like the same thing. Absolutely that I'll probably make similar kinds of money that I'll maybe probably vote the same but those outcomes like maybe you didn't set out to do it. But like that's what happens. Yeah sure when it's when it's like we don't talk about these things. That's what happens.

Yeah, because there's never any sort of you kind of managing conflict out of the whole equation. Oh absolutely, right? So that's one approach the other approach. Yeah was you marry these things? Oh, man. Right. Yeah, and and when I say Mariam. It's either I mean politically left or right for sure, you know, politically left. Oh, yeah, and and you're you're Faith politically, right and you and that's and we saw I mean I think in the last three years more people join left churches and join churches not on the basis of theology even though they kind of think that no it was on the basis of yeah masks. No, Mass. Yes, George Floyd how George Floyd I speak up did not police are with them. Are you against that's right. That's right. Very black in the white thinking. Are you making America great again? Oh, you know or or we trying to we never really imagine. Yes America, right, you know, right. What is the narrative?

Are people made decisions Fellowship decisions on the basis of right? Oh, no, my father served in the military. We love the nation is a beautiful thing. But I think the question becomes how can we be better citizens of Heaven? Yeah, and how does that influence the way that I see the Constitution and politics and as opposed to letting that be the rudder of my decision making yeah, right. Well, I only if I am a kind of a Bible believing kind of take the scriptures for what they mean where where we're called to pray for our leaders do that. Like am I praying for Biden who's in now? Am I pray for Biden as much as I pray for Trump or or what we tend to do is go God God is Man when he got Trump or if you're a Democrat God is Man when he got paid in. Yeah, but when the other team gets in the devil got one in all yeah like God stop being Sovereign all over right because we're viewing our world. Yes through the lens of the things that are forming and shaping us rather than potentially.

The lenses God's word and God's truth. That's right. Okay, so let me ask you right if I'm standing up front. Hope City like you do every single weekend and I look out on the sea of Hope City people. What am I seeing? Yeah, I think I think you're seeing a smattering of the valley. I think you're you're seeing people. We like to say that we're a multi-ethnic multicultural multi-generational church family. That's the bumper sticker. Yeah behind that we're a multi-social economic. We are literally at homeless people in millionaires in the same role greeting on the same team, right? We're also multi-social political.

Yeah. Sure. That's how you describe it. Yeah Church. Yeah. So so we've talked a little bit like if we were to look at Hope city as a church, we would be a pretty purple Church. Yeah be pretty purple. So it's always interesting and so for us I get the opportunity to lean into some of the political conversations as it relates to vote for who you vote for but not at the expense of of loving will your brother our sister in Christ or even the community at large beyond the borders of our church.

Partly partly, you know because I think we have to continue to remember that at least on our context when I look out I go. I mean the stuff you're saying on Facebook just know that person's probably greeting you at the door. They're from that political party. And so so yeah, so we're a multi-ethnic multicultural generational. It really is a smattering of people from all over.

Yeah. Yeah, so I mean obviously pray Lakes is different. Yeah, and you know most of our campuses. Yeah, I mean like our states Is what it is pretty vanilla pretty vanilla mostly rural. Yeah, I'm You know and our campuses are the same and so I mean that as you and I were just chatting about this the Curious Thing and I kind of want to hear more from you. So like for us as we because we we dove into some of these things. Yeah that were forming and shaping. Yeah, and I think sometimes for us at Prairie Lakes, we assume that the person sitting next to us both the same way sees the world the same way makes the same money lives the same way. We assume right but it's not true right? It's not why do you assume?

Because they look like me, right. Because they look like me. That's right. Right. Yeah, and we I've had we've had people that discovered. Yeah that the person next to them. What would you vote for and and then they went immediately to what kind of much what kind of church am I really a part of here? Wow, right. That's good. That's where they went.

Yeah, not the same. Yeah. Yeah, right, right. Yeah, so it's completely it's complicated like navigate some of these issues but for very different very different reasons. Yes. Yeah, you guys still did right you still jumped into them. Oh, yeah. Yeah so great. Yeah, I think for us it's difficult because for you know, it's easy to assume when everyone kind of looks the same dress the same for us. I was very I am very aware. Yeah, whenever I say something what what kind of group of people are gonna have issue? Yeah, because most of them they look, Like they vote Yes and different different political parties and and they're on Facebook and they're pretty vocal. You know, Facebook's giving everyone a microphone. So yeah, we waited into it, but I think we tried to do it wisely like with George Floyd. Um, I am I'm a black man. I don't know if anyone noticed but I am black. So yeah a surprise this morning when I woke up it used to me. Yeah. I know so in George Floyd happened everyone had an opinion about how I should respond. So the right. Oh, so the minorities in our church wanted me to respond a certain way people within the church. You were aware of some of that. I never as it relates to to being a minority in America and just some of those Dynamics they wanted me to respond a certain way. Yeah, then I had another group of people who wanted me to respond to certain way. So I chose not to respond at all on Facebook.

Probably cuz I don't like to be controlled right and and partly I think there's a time to speak and I think there is there. Not only is there a right time to speak but make sure the conversations happening with the right people. Yep. And I think as we talk about this whole idea of this mic like those conversations aren't best had over their airways. They're both their best had in this environment. Yeah at a table where we can understand get context and develop empathy and yeah in a safe space say hard things which is one of the things I love about you Jesse is you have been a true friend. You've walked with with me through some of my darkest life moments.

And even as we've navigated, I mean we've cried on the phone about some of the stuff like what's happening in culture. And how's the church responding? And that's that's the only way forward for us, you know, brother is we've gotta we've got to drop the bull horn. Yes in in do a little bit more of this. Yeah. That's how we'll find each other. I agree. Yeah, and there's a lot of forces in our culture that push us away from that absolutely right? Because you mentioned Facebook a couple times or the media or all these things. That's just kind of like put us away. So let's let's Maybe go to the last leg of our conversation here.

Okay, because we haven't really gotten. Yeah, we gotten kind of practical. Yeah, but we haven't really gotten like super practical, right? Okay. So how do we not just as pastors? Yeah, how do we as followers of Jesus talk about some of the difficult things because because as I look at the next 10 years 20 years 30 years, however long yeah, it's got us here. Yeah. I don't think it's gonna get like less polarizing I would agree. I don't think it's gonna get less politically charged. Yeah. I don't yeah, I think our job is to try to figure out how to navigate that. Yeah. And so, yes you and I we're chatting about this. I am I the the book that I've gone to even in seminary that was super helpful to me was It was guys getting Richard nieber. Yeah, but he wrote this book called Christ and culture. Yeah, okay, and he's got like I don't know several different ways in which the church has approached.

Culture. Yep. And has assumed that maybe Jesus is like on their side as they do and just walk through. Yeah, it's great some of this. Yeah, like here you as you as you go maybe even reflect back to me and the rest of us, like what parts of that does your church? Yeah and buying what parts of that is your church me push again. So the first one is like Christ against culture. Yeah.

Now the church's posture here is culture is a broken sinful messed up place and we had better. Build a wall. Yes. Is that too soon? He he building Fortress.

Oh barrier. I don't know you are but there's rallying Price Right. The church should be Pro. Whatever yes or anti or anti. Yeah, so we're gonna stand against marriage equality police brutality. We're gonna stand against or we're gonna stand against CRT but defunding police. Oh, yeah, whatever whatever it is, whatever it is because nothing issues.

Yeah, because the world is nuts. Yeah, and and the church is the place that you know is is the is the whatever right and and even as we're talking about it a lot of times Christ against culture mentality gets translated primarily in political terms. Interesting. Why do you think that is?

because I don't think it aligns with Jesus, you know, like there's so he When when I think here's what I think I think when you define. Our approach in some of these hard things as against I think you you kind of have to jettison. Mmm, the things that Jesus is for that go across that line, right? So Jesus doesn't blur the lines between sin and not at all and and Truth not at all. But he crosses that with his grace and his love he should right. Oh, we thankful for that. Our posture man is against you know, then what happens inevitably is whoever's on this side of the line with me is for me. Yeah, and whoever's on this side of line not with is against me. Yeah, I think that's why and so once you're on this side of the line, well, then what we all have in common here. Well, yeah, we all vote choice, you know, that's right. We all vote big government or small government or whatever. Whatever that mental that's where that leads to we've been able to navigate that because we've LED and we're trying to lead with what we're for as opposed to being known for what we're against. Yeah now when I say against Again, we've got sin the world the devil. Those are three things that are seen us enemies of me being formed into Christ. I think what happens in this Christ against culture is that they say the world is culture and I would say that's not true. Right there are parts of the world that are beautiful. Yeah attemptive. Yes. God is in it education. There are parts and even in our economy that there are good things. That's right. The Christ says I can celebrate the cultures God's idea culture is God's idea. That's right. And so and so yeah, so we try to combat that. Yeah on the front end to not deal with it as much on the back end, right you will get people who whatever the issue is we should stand up for we should say something about and you have to deal with that and and honestly at times it's been a generation of people who grew up at a time where the church has and still is seen as being the cultural Warriors. We're fighting this cultural War. Yeah, but we just try to remind them. Yeah.

Crisis doing something in me. Yeah before he's doing something through me and so I've got to be a light not a blowtorch to culture. It's difficult. I think to adopt this posture fully when Jesus says love your enemies very much. So I just it's like impossible. I don't know. How do you how do you do that? Right and our churches would really much align, I think with the overall trajectory of our mission. Yeah, which is yeah. Oh absolutely. We are externally facing churches on apologetically. So Christ against culture. Not really no, The next one he talks about when it comes to navigating some of these hard things if we're not just supposed to be oppositional. The next option is Christ of culture. Yeah, okay, and you know if you if you adopt this posture There really isn't any hard things, you know to talk about they're never hard because you know, you just Embrace everything. Yeah, you just Embrace everything.

No line of delineation. No, no line of like Jesus is Love. And so let's just love everybody. Right? Right and it's really short throw from that to affirming. Whatever what you're a firm. That's right embracing whatever the culture but they'll tie it Christ of culture people will just tie it to this love this idea of Love. Yeah, they're definition of it. Yeah, right. Yeah.

He has interesting. What do they do with the hard things that Jesus has to say that's that's probably the thing because they don't probably talk about it very much. Yeah, right and they'll even sometimes I you know, Christ of culture people will do kind of like cartwheels, um to work their way around that even even like changing.

Their belief around like is the Bible authoritative or is it not is it requires it not you know, is it kind of a man-made book or is it is it God's word to us? No, we'll have to like change a little bit of what they think about that in order to accommodate this affirming. Yeah view, right? Yeah. That's what that's what they'll do. And so I'm guessing as I'm looking by look on your face.

Oh, no, we're not there at all. Not that do you ever get accused of that? No, I haven't. No, we've not been accused of that. Um, no never been accused of like being too soft So I've not been accused of being too too soft as as much as it's been say more about the negative effects of right the these things right or or talk people that they're Sinners. Yeah, they need to know that they're sinful. Yeah, Uncle man, they woke up this morning and thought on their way to church. They're aware.

Yeah. They're aware. Yeah, and and so the Bible does the Bible the Bible calls since I was really clear about saying right, I would challenge people. I mean because we Pastor John our senior pastor and I talked about this couple weeks ago.

The interaction that Jesus has yeah with people. Yeah because there's a there's a ton of them almost a hundred of them in the gospels that we have well, I he almost never leads with where you are screwing up your life, right? That's right. Now he never he never backs off that either. Yeah conversation. You know what I'm saying? That's right. We never leads. He doesn't ever really seem to that's like yeah, who do you think I am?

Yeah. That's right. What do you need? That's right. What are you asking me? That's right. That's right. Do you believe that's right. I mean, these are the things that he leads with. Yeah, and then and then when he needs to he'll say like go and sin no more right don't make me an Arbiter between you. Yeah those kinds of Beware of right?

Yeah, and I think the the kind of that middle group of people, you know Christ of culture. They they emphasize the front half but I'll acknowledging the back that's right, which is at times our scene gets us into Harry predicaments number. One two, it does God is a judge he is not taken off.

His judge hat. Yes, he is but me he's a he's a compassionate judge. I agree that Jesus is loving but there is a reason that Jesus died. There is a reason right? There's a reason I mean if is if we're gonna say that Jesus is loving in the most clear way with him outstretched arms on the cross. Yeah. There's a reason yeah that he died. That's question.

This is why the question is why right so he cannot we can't be affirming of everything no culture affirms because then we're gonna firm. Yeah the same things that Jesus says I'm dying for this Gods against this and take the penalty for you. Yeah. I remember there was a um, there was someone who identified as a different gender than the one that were born with and and they were attending and and getting loved on.

I mean, you know just getting left on and the the kind of the headline became in a meeting to me, aren't we gonna say something? I said well you must say something about your sin. Because I know him you I mean you want me to handle your sin the same way that you want me to handle theirs.

And and so we had a it was a great coaching opportunity to say that people are welcome to belong before they believe him number one welcoming in affirming are two different conversations three. I trust God at work in them as we hold out the the gospel of chance. I've Got Confidence in God and his ability to shape and change and form us no matter what the thing is, whether it's an eternal thing or visible thing that everyone sees I think sometimes we say we trust the power work of the Holy Spirit God's word. But it sometimes we we kind of assume we should help them out a little bit. I got a convict you yeah, I've got to be the one and I just don't know even to your point, you know, the Jesus was the harshest with the religious leaders.

I mean people who were broken very tender very I mean all of the whitewash tomb, you know, you know Sons of Satan, you know pit of vipers. That's all the people who were insiders and wanted to get hard on sin.

Hey who were unwilling to embrace? Yeah Outsider. Yes. Yeah. They got it wrong. They just got it wrong. Okay, so I think we're both the we can probably dismiss the Christ against even though there's parts of that that are kind of Redemptive we can dismiss the Christ. Oh, even though there's maybe elements of Truth and yeah, but but really like the third and final one, this is probably where we find a mixture in our churches is Christ above culture as we're navigating some of these hard things. Yeah.

An approach might be crisis of culture and this can look a few different ways. Okay, so Christ above culture. There's a there's like a synthesis way to approach meaning It all truth is God's truth. Okay, all truth is God's truth. And so let's take and let's take our cues and like learn from both so masks. Okay sure what part of that seems to be kind of just good scientific practice, right? And what parts of this is kind of more like human fear, you know and synthesis would say hey, Don't do this take the good in both and stay above.

Yeah The Fray that's great. Okay, that's one approach. That's good advice that Christ above culture. The other way. This kind of gets worked out is in like a a paradox meaning in some of these hard things. What you're gonna see is Brokenness sin has worked its way in and that's why it's so loaded. That's why it's so polarized. That's why it's so hateful.

That's why people are yeah and We're not going to remain out of The Fray, right? But what we're going to understand is our postures to go into that. Yeah with the grace and the love and the mercy and the message of Jesus. Yeah. Yeah, so it's a paradox meaning like I want to stay out of it, but not I'm not out of it out of you. I don't want to get wrapped up in it. But I want to reach those people with the message of of Jesus. That's Paradox. And then the final way to this kind of gets worked out Christ above culture. Some of these hard things is train as a Transformer crisis a Transformer of culture. Yeah. So let's go back to like George Floyd. Okay, is this an issue of police brutality? Is this an issue of racism? Is this an issue of you know fill in the blank? Yeah, or is it the is it all of the above and ultimately one day Jesus is going to make it so that we won't have these problems anymore.

But the pathway to that is the one that we're on right now. Where we might need to start talking about as a church racial reconciliation. We might need to talk about Christian Community Development. We might need to talk about systemic racism. We might need to talk about instance. We might need to talk about powers and principles powers and principalities so that By the time Jesus comes back. We are being transformed and we're starting to operate in a way that we will one day operate.

Okay, I was at different from the the Paradox of I have to speak out. Paradox people would go you know, I but George Floyd's a great example of this and I don't when I say that I mean, I don't I'm gonna be careful like George Floyd's also a person here like who's on the issue, but I think for our conversation is just a helpful insight. Yeah, Paradox people would say look at that story and say oh Jesus second. I can't yeah, I can't look I can't wait until you return and we don't have to and they're not saying it.

Completely dispassionate and sure but it's like Jesus. It's like the gospel is like the magic key for that. And there's not really a call for some of the Paradox people to kind of jump into the ways that the gospel might need to get worked out. Okay in that it's it's great. I I wish that you know, what if that cop new Jesus and George Floyd new Jesus, that would be different sure and I'll go like Yes.

But also what else like what's what's our job? Yeah in some of that Paradox people. Yeah. The the gospel is the skeleton key got it. I'm Transformers is like no, it's not just Heaven later. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Yes. Okay so synthesis. Yeah. We had a guy. It's kind of both and Paradox. We got it. We had to run to a broken world with the message of Jesus Transformer.

Yeah, it's a little bit of that like Kingdom later. But also now yeah, Jesus is gonna fix everything eventually but we're in a process where the kingdom is is now near and we got to start operating differently in these systems in this broken systems right now putting a different picture on display when you're planning a message. Yeah. Okay synthesis would be let's let's make it both hand. Yeah, let's let's grab this and let's grab the truth here. And let's not that would be your kind of posture. If you're a paradox person. It's whoa is me. What was this world? But Jesus loves this world. So let's not hate it but it's really broken and one day it's all gonna make it's about me Transformer would be yeah, here's the ways in which we're gonna live as people in God's kingdom. Yeah in a way that's often counter cultural. Yeah relies heavily upon Jesus's intervention and is a picture of One day things to come. Yeah.

So so which of those are playing a message? Are you more likely to like and yes, yeah, you theologically philosophy to Ministry would be for sure the third one. Yeah. We are people here on Mission sent by Jesus to fulfill the work of Jesus and in every way in which we can again. I think there's an individual in a corporate manifestation of it individually if God answered every one of my prayers of my life be the only one that's changed.

Say that one more time. Yep, if God answered every one of my prayers but my life be the only life that's changed. Okay, and we're just gonna pause we're gonna let the people that are hearing that because that was a That was beautiful. Yeah Okay. So we've created space for people to kind of wrap their mind around that question.

And the answer to that question is right answer the right answer. Yeah is no no. Yeah, what would what else would change? Yeah, I would say two things that wasn't meant to be an accusation. But an antidote. Yep. Okay. Yeah, there's two things Jesus swept over people in places.

And so what we want is the Heart of Jesus, we're just going back to Jesus being formed in US Jesus. What do you love? What do you see when you see Humanity what matters to you God if you're a father, what do you care about? How can I love the things that you love? Like how can I care about those things? So one of the easiest ways is to pray not as an excuse for Action, right? But the first response to action is to pray pray pray. Okay, I believe if you will be honest in prayer, even if it's got I don't know what to say.

Teach me what to say. I think naturally ideas and opportunities out of his goodness. Well, I'm just talking about as an individual I'm tracking. Out of his goodness ideas and opportunities will come to you for you to be the answer to your own prayer.

Okay, that's that's how the kingdom works. That's how the father works. That's how he fathers us. That's not just calling you to heaven one day. No, he's calling me to love today. Yes. Yes, and some uncomfortable ways. Yeah, what ways ways that go beyond? Yeah, my little yeah.

Sphere yeah, yeah, I don't think life makes sense until you start making a difference in the life of someone else. I think we are robbing ourselves. So organizationally I want to be I think I would feel as if I'm robbing people the true experience of what it means to be a Christian to not call them to action. Yep. That is probably as I think it's very well said and I think it just it it does remind us that as many of the pitfalls and as many of the polarizing and loaded and all of the things we used to describe the last three years in part of the next several. Yeah.

every single one of those with this kind of mindset Presents an opportunity. Hmm. Let's go for us to point everybody to our underlying need really. That's right.

But if we don't have that mentality, right we're gonna miss out on that opportunity. Hmm. And we won't yeah, we'll fall right back in to the systems. You know that are not going to ultimately change your transform anybody, right?

So okay, my friend. I'm grateful for you. I love you. I love you too, man. I respect you quite a bit man. Yeah, I admire you. Yes me you know, yeah, I do. Yeah I do and I'm really grateful for you. Thanks for Thanks for spending some time. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to get our churches together. Yeah, yeah.