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Prairie Lakes Church. Hello and welcome and thanks for joining us, uh, this weekend. And as you can already tell, um, we're doing something a a little bit different. And so let me, let me kind of get right to that by, uh, introducing the guy that's on the screen with me.

If you don't recognize him by his face, when we give him a chance to speak, you might recognize him by his voice. But joining us is, uh, pastor Andy Stanley, who is the, uh, founding pastor of North Point Community Church in the Atlanta area.

Um, founded it about 30 years ago. He doesn't look, he doesn't look like he did that 30 years ago. Um, but he did. So Pastor Andy, thank you so, so very much for joining us. Yeah, well, it's an honor.

And as we were chatting off, uh, before we started recording, I'm just so grateful that you've engaged with this content. The way you have in this, sharing it with your churches. In fact, I'll just say to your churches since they're listening now, is I, I told Jesse, I said, Hey, you've, you, you're doing such a good job with this.

Could you come to Atlanta and teach this to our churches? 'cause I, they've, they're tired of hearing me talk about it. Maybe a different voice would kind of put another, uh, push on the flywheel. 'cause we're about to head into once again, as you know, just this crazy, crazy season of craziness.

Yeah. And so, anyway, thanks for having me. I Appreciate it. Oh, yeah. Well, and, and if you would, if you wouldn't mind just indulging me just for a second. Um, uh, so, um, gosh, 20 years ago I was interviewing for my first job here, uh, at Prairie Lakes.

And, uh, I got some back channel coaching that, um, to get ready for the interview, I should read everything. Andy Stanley and everything North Point because, because our church, um, and really for the better part of the last two decades, um, we've sent folks to the Drive conference and the Catalyst Conference and the orange conferences.

And, and actually still today, um, your book, deep and Wide, chapter four, um, is standard reading for all of us, uh, especially New Pray Lake staffers. So we, we just sincerely would say, uh, thank you for your service to the church, to our church. And, uh, we're again, we're just, we're just real grateful.

So, anyways, that's enough Flatting. How about that? Um, uh, let's, uh, let's, let's dive right in. Uh, we have for the last couple of weeks, um, we have been, like you mentioned, um, going through, uh, content on the basis of your book, uh, not in it to win it. And, uh, yeah, our first question is, you know, you're, before you're an author or speaker, pa you're a pastor.

Um, the question is, were you seeing some things in like your people or your church, um, that prompted you to write this book? And, and what were those? Yeah. And, and I'm glad you said that about me being a pastor.

Um, I, I really am first and foremost a local church pastor. And, and, and being in a multi-site situation like you are, when we started adding campuses, I kept kind of getting pushed up to the top of the pyramid a little bit, and I didn't like it. And I, I decided, no, I wanted to be a lead pastor at a local church.

So I currently am a lead pastor at one of our campuses, um, because I just like the nuts and bolts of church. So to answer your question, yes. Um, you know, in the past, you know, several years, we don't need to review all of that. Um, people got were very ang some people in our church were angry with me, uh, started getting voicemails, direct messages, email, um, letters, um, and they're upset and they're gonna leave the church.

And like has happened in so many churches around the United States, they weren't leaving the church because of our theology. Even our music, remember when people used to leave the church because of music? Right. Um, it wasn't our children's programs.

It wasn't the, the, you know, the normal suspects. It was, they were upset with me for not doing something I had never done, for not talking about things I'd never talked about. And, um, for not taking a stand. And as you know, Jesse, when people say, we need you to take a stand, what they really mean is they want you to take their stand, right?

And if you're not gonna take their stand, then just shut up and don't take any stand, right? And so I'm like, Hey, I, you know, it's like the old couple in the car, you know, and she's sitting over next to the window and he's driving and they pull up next to the convertible with the young couple, and they're all all over each other.

And, and the, uh, the, the wife looks over and says, honey, remember when we were like that? And the driver says, he says, well, I haven't moved, you know, and I, I felt like the, the old guy driver's, like, we're, we're the same church we've always been. What are you so upset about? So, um, I literally, I talk a little bit about this in the book.

I literally called every single person who let us know they were leaving. Um, and, and this wasn't hundreds of people, but it was dozens of people. And then of course people laughed that didn't tell us they were leaving.

And 100% of these phone calls after I convinced 'em, it was really me, um, 100% of these phone calls, they were really leaving over political issues once I kind of dug, you know, it wasn't really mask, it wasn't really that we'd quit meeting altogether and recirculated air during, you know, a pandemic.

It wasn't really that. It really came down to political things. And, um, I tried to end those conversations friendly, but it was a big deal. And these were people, um, who've been in our church 15 years, raise their kids.

In fact, in most conversations when I would call, they would say, they would start telling me what a difference the church had made in their life. Like, they forgot they were mad at me for just a moment. 'cause he was so, um, yeah, it was a big deal. And so as I heard from pastors all over the country saying, Hey, what, what do we do?

This is, we've never, we're certainly not equipped for this and we're not sure what to do with this. I just found I had a lot of energy, some anger, some frustration. So I just started writing. I was gonna write an article, and then I kept going.

And, uh, Sandra and I, my wife and I were actually, had just started writing a parenting book that came out this past January finally. And I had to tell her, honey, I hate to tell you, but, and I told my publicist, Hey, hit pause. I gotta write this book for this moment because this is crazy.

Yeah. And it doesn't need to be, we are the body of Christ. We should know how to navigate something like this without a tearing us apart. Right. So, I mean, and you mentioned the experience that you had, there was the same that you were hearing from pastors, you know, literally across the nation.

Us too. Um, as we were starting to sort through it as, as pastors and, and as leaders, I remember feeling it, it being very disorienting. Like, yeah. Wow. I I thought we were on a different page. I thought we were different as a church. Yeah. Um, and then it caused us to kind of almost reevaluate what have we been, been doing.

Um, it, it sounds like the same, the same for you. What did you start to kind of uncover? I mean, I mean, it was political reasons, but what was going on there inside of people's minds and hearts as you started to kinda evaluate? Well, to piggyback on something you just said, because you just, something, a lot of it's a voice.

I felt like I've done a terrible job discipling Yes. Our congregation, I've been here for 20 at that point, 26 years, 27 years. And wow, their, their faith and their, their sense of community is about an inch deep. You know, what, you know, and again, that this was a, just a, a percentage, I make it sound like, you know, we had this mass exodus.

It wasn't a mass ex exodus. It was a loud exodus. Yeah. And I'm sure, and, and that's what's happened with Yeah. With so many pastors. So here's, here's part of the reason, and I can't peel back everybody's heart and, and judge, judge people, but part of it was, um, a lot of Christians have basically cloaked their desire to have their way in the world with their Christianity.

That we, you know, on the surface, we're Christians and we're nice people, and we want to exhibit the fruit of the spirit. But at the end of the day, underneath it all, I want my way. I wanna win. I don't want things to be, not be the way that I think they should be, and out of off in the rise, and here comes our savior on a white horse with a flag draped over it saying, I can make our country what you always wanted it to be.

And for some reason in this moment, Christians sort of threw off their Christianity and revealed the fact that, Hey, I just want, I want things the way I want things, and I'm ready to fight for it. And this whole idea of, turn the other cheek, that's too passive.

Um, love your enemies, that's too passive. Suddenly the core teaching of our savior isn't relevant anymore because there's something more relevant and more important. And like you, I, I'm like, wait, I don't know what to do with that.

I mean, that's, that's crazy. And again, it's just a percentage, but it was a loud percentage. So I think we all discovered something about ourselves and we discovered something about, um, an un uh, sort of an undercurrent in the Christian faith in the United States.

And maybe it's good we discovered it. Sure. 'cause now people like us can address it. Yeah. And so you do, so you go to write this book, and there's, um, there's been a couple of ideas that our church has already been introduced to as we've kind of been working through the content.

Um, ideas like, um, having, for us, the guiding question from Jesus's great commandments, Hey, what does love require of us? That idea? Mm-Hmm. Or the idea, and this is, I, this is one I it was one of my favorites from, from this book.

Anyway, um, Jesus came to lose on purpose with a purpose. So these are, these are ideas, right? Come right out of right outta the gospels. Um, you go and you communicate these ideas, not just in this book, but you go to communicate 'em again to like your people at your church.

Um, the question is, as you, as you started communicating these ideas and others, what ones did you, did you watch your people maybe struggle to understand or, or struggle to embrace? Yeah. I think the, well, the struggle to understand is, is, is trying to get through this, this fog of, yes, I love our country.

I'm very patriotic. I'm cry the nationals anthem. I mean, I'm, I love our country. So this is not about not loving our country or not being patriotic. And, and here's where you and I have this in common, is I also had to communicate, yes, I'm concerned about what's happening in our country.

Right? It's not that I don't care, it's not that I don't see what's happening in the school system. It's not that I don't see the confusion, sexual confusion with a, a generation of students. I, of course I see all that. Of course, I care about all that.

I wrote an entire book on the new rules of love, sex, and dating. You know, we're very consistent. Like your churches are about a New Testament sexual ethic. Yeah. So, yes, we care about all those things. The issue is not do we care.

The issue is what approach do we take because we care. So in not, and it to win it. I ask the question, is there anything in the teaching of Jesus or the teachings of the Apostle Paul that are instructive to people who are in, are in our situation?

And the answer is yes, it is. You know, we get to choose whether or not we follow Jesus. We don't get to choose what following Jesus looks like. It has been prescribed. So the, I think the, the hard part in our context, and I'm talking about my context, is helping people understand, yes, I see what you see.

Yes, I'm concerned about what you're concerned about. That's not the issue. The issue is how do we respond? And it has been prescribed. And when people say, oh, that's not going to work, I say, no, you don't understand. It already worked once upon a time, a disenfranchised, you know, basically a handful of Jesus followers impacted an empire.

They had no show, social standing, they had no economic backing. We have the internet, you know, we're, we're huge. You know, so helping people understand that. And then the, the other thing, um, is I have looked for opportunities to come back to some of these themes with different titles under different guise to keep slowly pushing on the positive side of this flywheel.

I don't wanna preach against people. I don't even want to preach against, um, you know, trends that as soon as you mention them, it divides people. And so I just actually finished this past Sunday, a four-part series called Icon, the Empowering Invitation of the Cross.

And I went right back to all of these themes. I asked our congregation, imagine next time you're in a conflict, just pause and ask yourself what would it look like to choose to lose in this situation? To let them go first, even though you got there first, um, to give them your place even though you got there first, to, to let them win the argument.

To, to let them take credit. Just at least consider what would it look like to lose. And then the second part was, what would it look like to chase humility, not just respond humbly to chase humility for even the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve and to intentionally give his life as a ransom for money.

He marched to Jerusalem. He didn't march on Jerusalem. And in our culture, our call as Christians isn't to march on an issue or on people. It's to march to those people to let our light shine in such a way. I mean, you know, all those verses.

So helping people understand, I'm concerned, like you are, the issue is how are Christians prescribed to respond? And we're not the first generation of Christians to have to face these kinds of things, But we're American and we don't like to be told, we do not like to be told like, what to do, much less like how to do it.

And it's, and it's something that we wear a little bit like a badge. I mean, like, we look back on our found again, we say, they told us and we told them, you know, um, I mean individualism, um, and even you could call it, uh, division, right?

Like the right to be divided Mm-Hmm. That runs really, really deep. Yep. And it's a theme that you, you talk about often in, in, in this book. Um, I appreciate how you start making the connection between that kind of cultural norm for us.

Um, and then something that the New Testament identifies as being really dangerous. Mm-Hmm. And that's this idea of, uh, of divisiveness. Yep. Um, and, and we wouldn't call individualism divisiveness, but the spirit behind it really is, and especially is true when it comes to the local church.

Um, but I'll admit this to you and I would love to kind, uh, maybe have you speak to, to this a little bit more. That is not an intuitive connection that we make. We do not make the connection between individualism and the right to think and say, and believe what I want.

We don't make the connection between that and like maybe divisiveness or things that are a threat to Christian unity. So could you help us, especially for those of us who maybe haven't dove deep into the idea, make that connection for us, what do you see in terms of divisiveness in the, in the local church, and how does it often fly under the radar?

Well, and again, anything, what I'm about to say is so obvious. Does it need to be said? But yes, me cannot survive without we, me. I mean, I don't, I don't care how individual and how I'm gonna be my own person.

I would starve to death. Let's just start there. Right? There is no successful me without a we, whether it's in the marketplace, the church, the family. I mean, we all know intuitively we stop to think about it. If there's not a we, there's no longer a me. So that's just, that's just fundamental.

That's not Christian or non-Christian or religious. That's just a thing. It's easy in our culture because we are able to be so isolated and survive. I can get plenty of food to eat and not know a single person's name. I mean, I, I mean, we, our culture allows us to live with an artificial sense of independence.

But there is no me without a we. So we just start there. But then secondly, we actually socially and psychologically need each other. But then beyond that, going to the point of your question is this. And, and we, I talk about this in the book.

I'm sure you've preached on this in the, in the high priestly prayer, when Jesus is praying for future church, the only thing he ask his heavenly Father to protect the church from is not bad theology or bad music or bad children's programs, you know, or a bad schedule. The only thing he says is, please don't let them be divided.

Let them be one as we are one. Because if they're one, then this is the, this is the in order. That the, the, the result statement, then the world will know that you sent me. In other words, the key to the world, understanding that Jesus came from God is the unity of the church.

So what, this is what I would say to people on the far left are far right who consider themselves to be Christians, the win, the win is unity. The win is I sit next to people I disagree with politically. The win is I sit next to people that I'm different from racially.

The win is when I'm sitting next to people who have a different life experience that has caused them to draw different conclusions. Because as soon as you hear a person's story, you go, oh, oh, now I understand. Now the temperature comes down.

Well, the, we should be the best at that. Because as the Apostle Paul, you know, teases out throughout his, his epistles, we are one another people. I mean, the Paul Paul's imperatives are all one another, love one another, support one another, carry one another's burdens, forgive one another, encourage one another, accept one another.

I mean, and you can one another, another person regardless of who they voted for, regardless of what they look like and regardless of where they live. So this should be easy for us because this is fundamental to us as Jesus followers. And all you have to do is extrapolate that out to an entire community and you realize, wow, we, there are no problems we could not solve if we decide first and foremost we're gonna one another, one another as our Heavenly Father through Christ one another.

To us, it is simple. It's just not easy. And for some, well, I say for some reason we know the reasons, um, Christians have allowed themselves to be divided by the voices on the far left and the far right. But at the end of the day, it's about one another.

And we should be so good at that because we actually literally need one another. Yeah. And I, I'd love to maybe even provide even a finer point on that same, on that same point you just made there in the book, you talk a lot about, um, not just being unified around what we believe, but unified around how we're living that belief out in the way that Jesus defined it.

Yeah. Unified around really loving God and loving our, our neighbor. Could you, could you talk maybe a little bit more about, because we're, you and I are evangelical and that's, I know that's a political political moniker now, but it's a theological thing.

Like we believe in, in, in scripture, and we believe in Jesus, and we believe in this mission to share the gospel in all of this. Um, but we have a tendency to, as evangelicals, it seems to elevate belief and then almost minimize practice. Yeah. And so we have to be unified not just in what we believe and what we're standing for, but what we're living out.

Yeah. Um, do you see, um, a little bit of a, of a de-emphasis in the ethical side, the action side, the love side? And how do you start to raise the temperature, um, of that in, in your church? Well, you, you made the point.

I mean, Jesus says far more about what to do than what to believe. Far more so does the Apostle Paul. It's in fact, Jesus said, anyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a fool who built his house on the sand.

That's pretty clear. In other words, if you don't do this, there is no value in simply believing in terms of this life and the difference we make in this life. I mean, think of a father who believes all the right things and treats his kids, or treats his wife like trash. I mean, we don't go, oh, but hey, he believes all the right stuff it's doing.

I say this to our church all the time, doing is what makes the difference. And you strike you, you hit on a really important point. As evangelicals, we have historically so focused on you don't work your way to heaven. You don't work your way to heaven.

You don't, you know, your works aren't gonna get you to heaven. We have un unfortunately and unintentionally undermined the importance of good works. The Apostle pulses, you were created in Christ Jesus, not for heaven, for good works.

And again, Jesus says, let your light shine in such a way that they might see your good deeds. So absolutely, and I think it comes back to folks like us, Jesse, in our preaching and teaching that we anchor people's faith to Jesus and we anchor people's behavior to the teaching of Jesus, because that's how they know where Jesus followers.

Yeah. No, that's great. That's great. Um, so let's, let's look ahead a little bit. Um, um, uh, we're certainly, um, on the downward slope of the election cycle. We're gonna start this whole thing again. Um, we're in Iowa, so we, we have the benefit of that first caucus. Hey, We're in ge. Hey, we're in Georgia. So don't get too excited about being in Iowa.

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're at, we are at the epicenter of, here we go again. Right. Yeah. Here We, here we go again. Um, so a couple questions kind of related to that. Um, it seems like, um, church, our church, the church still a little bit behind the eight ball when it comes to catching up to the influence that messaging has, whether it's YouTube, uh, social media, all of the independent, uh, media outlets that are, that are out there now.

Um, could you coach us a little bit or maybe even share a little bit of how you shepherd, teach coach your people through navigating all of those voices and all the rabbit holes and all the silos and all the weird places that we can kind of find ourselves? How do you coach your people, um, na to navigate some of those things?

Well, and I, again, these are things I don't think we can say too often to the point where people think, Hey, if you just run outta things to say, I think step number one, I would say, if I was talking to your congregation, hour to hours, I'd say, okay, I just want you to look at your life.

I want you to look at your school. I want you to look at your kids and your community. If you didn't know any of this crazy stuff we hear on the far left and far right, the truth is you would think, wow, what a country, what a life.

I'm so grateful to God, because for the most part, things are really, really good. In fact, the people who are paying attention to trends in culture would argue persuasively. Things have actually never been better. And people have never been better off in the United States of America than they are right now.

And even compared to what's going on to the rest of the world, because what fuels growth and what fuels the middle class and what fuels prosperity in the United States is our creativity. And our creativity has not diminished one, one ounce.

Consequently, we will continue to be a nation that solves problems. We're see the shining sea. Yeah. We're in the perfect climate, even though things seem to be going crazy. 'cause we know so much more about what's happening all over the world in terms of climate.

So consequently, if, if you just tune out the noise and just look around your life and your community and your church, things are good. Yeah. So, and then number two is this. The people on the ends are making money. I mean, and I'm not saying they're all evil, but you don't make any money in the middle.

You don't get a big following in the middle. You don't scare people in the middle. And the fear moners and the leaders, and this is something I come back to all the time, A leader who needs an enemy in order to lead, that should be a red flag, whether they're on the left or the right.

Any leader who has to demonize a group of people in order to get leadership traction, not a good leader. And the best example of how to lead is Jesus who said love. That is draw a circle around, not a line between love your enemies. You don't keep, you don't make an enemy. An enemy.

You love your enemy even if your enemy never changes. So the leader that's gotta have an enemy to, in order to lead that should be a red flag, especially to Christians. It's not, it's, it's not good leadership. Mm-Hmm. So, and then the last thing I would say is this. When you think about the person who is furthest away from you politically, I, here's what you have in common with that person values.

Hmm. If we as Christians could learn to begin our conversations, not with convictions or beliefs, but with values, there is common ground. We love our families. Hmm. We are concerned about our health. We're concerned about our future.

We're concerned about our future health. We're concerned about, I mean, we're all basically concerned about the same thing. And when we focus on those things, there's common ground and we can make progress. That's crazy. And again, those of us who are followers of Jesus, we should be the best at this.

We have an eternal perspective and a earthly mandate. And when those two things come together, hey, it changed the world once. Yeah. I, I still think it could change the world again. That's great. That's great. Well, um, last question, and, and I kind of set you up for this a little bit because I mean, we are, we're, we're the first caucus in the nation.

Um, uh, we've got the candidates who've already been here, um, they're gonna be here. We've got the, the ads, we've, we've just, we've got it all. Um, so You've got a mailbox full of cardboard. We do, we do. It's, it's ridiculous. Um, yeah.

But this is, this is kind of who we are, um, as Iowans. But you're also talking to people, um, who are prairie Lakers. And, um, here's our mantra. We're, we're, uh, at our best, we're a no matter church, we're, we want to be a church, we wanna be a community, we wanna be a people.

We wanna be a place where no matter who you are, no matter where you've been, no matter what you've done, Mm-Hmm. No matter what's been done to you, we want Pray Lakes to be a place where, where you know that God loves you because of what Jesus has done. And wherever you're at, you can look for him.

Um, at our best, that's who we are. Okay. So we're, we're about to go off the cliff and do the election season, but at our best, that's who we are. Could you speak to us as we're about to embark on that journey?

Yeah, I think Jesus summed it up perfectly. I even, I quoted this a minute ago. It's as you go and wherever you go, wherever I go, as I go, let your light shine. That is, let your life shine in such a way that people see your good works and give God the credit.

And in our world good works. I think the key, and I talk about this in the book, is our reactions. Reactions speak louder than words. And we are about to enter, or we're entering this time when everyone is re a reaction means essentially you're allowing someone else to control your actions.

We should allow our Heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit to control our actions and our reactions and our reactions. We'll speak louder than words. When we choose to forgive, when nobody else would forgive. That's our opportunity.

When we're mistreated and we don't mistreat in return, that's our opportunity. When we refuse to, when we refuse to return evil for evil, that's our opportunity. And when we decide to look for ways to draw circles around people in order to bring them together, instead of lines that divide, that's our opportunity.

Yeah. So the point to the point of your question, as Jesus followers, we have more opportunity now in this season than we do in a nonpolitical season. The question is, will we take advantage of these opportunities? That's great. That's great.

Well, um, thank you again for, uh, for giving us some of your time today. Um, I didn't prepare you for this, but you're a pastor, so you should be able to just kind of grip it and rip it. Um, could you, could you please, if you'd be willing, could you pray over us?

Could you pray Absolutely. Kind of for us as we close down? Absolutely. And of course, you know, as a pastor, wherever we go, you know, whether it's family gatherings, you know, and it's time to pray for the meal or for anything, right? All eyes just, you know, go to write to us.

My son Garrett, who's our middle child, he knows that. So whenever we're in environments like that, before somebody can ask somebody to pray, Garrett says, I'll pray. It's like, don't ask my dad. I got this. I'm like, you go kid. Alright, that's awesome.

I'd love to, I'd love to pray for you Father. Um, I do pray for Jesse and for Prairie Lakes churches and this incredible opportunity. They have this incredible footprint, this kingdom footprint in these communities. Just give them eyes to see the opportunities that are before them.

And I do pray, father, for all of us, that our reactions would reflect the reactions and the love of our savior. I do pray that in those moments of tension, that we would remember to ask, what does love require of me? What does it look like to chase humility?

What does it look like to be willing to lose? Because there's something else at stake that goes beyond what we see. So I just pray that you would continue to bless this network of churches. I pray that you would expand them, that you would expand their influence in their communities and beyond their, their communities.

And I just pray for Jesse Father, as he stays up late at night like I do, and thinks about these things and wonders, what's the best way to go forward? Just give him wisdom and surround him with men and women who are wise and godly men and women, good counselors, and that he would know he has the support of that community as he leads the community forward, and as he impacts that community for Christ.

And we pray all of these things in Jesus name. Yeah. Amen. Amen.